st165 - the plan, opinions please

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Hi all,

I have recently got myself a new job which comes with a car allowance, so the 165 has been retired from daily use. My plan is to use the car for weekend events / trackdays this summer, but my ultimate aim is to build it into a fast road / sprint / hillclimb / trackday monster 

Currently the car is modified as follows:

Whiteline springs with replacement Toyota dampers,
Whiteline rear ARB
Most bustes are polybushes
OZ 16" Superturismo wheels
Profec B EBC (currently set to 1 bar in 'high' mode)
Turboforce stage 2 hybrid turbo (supposedly capable of up to 400 Bhp)
Aluminium radiator
TTE metal headgasket
st205 clutch
short shifter
momo steering wheel
charge cooler pumb running continuously
Aussie DP
Scorpion exhaust (which I don't like)
Scorpion panel filter
Blitz turbo timer
Oil filter relocation kit (to be fitted)
Lagging for CC (to be fitted)
AP Racing front brakes (to be fitted)

This little lot gave 273bhp with 276 ft/lbs torque last December (although I think it is a little down on this due to overfueling).

I am waiting for my MSA blue book to arrive to decide which category to race in, but this is the list of things I am currently thinking of doing to the car next winter:

- Strip to bare shell
- Have the shell dipped and painted in a galvanising paint by these people: http://www.surfaceprocessing.co.uk - The shell is in pretty good condition at the moment, just a little rust on the arches
- Repair any bodywork that needs repairing, including making all bumpers etc fit properly
- Lighten the body?
- Have shell seam welded and fit rollcage
- Respray in white
- Have engine rebuilt with forged components - I want to keep the 165 block, but I am open to suggestions for the rest
- Hydra nemesis ecu - should I run the forged engine in on the standard ecu first?
- Sort out the air flow - i.e air intakes, bonet vents, brake ducts etc - all suggestions gratefully recieved
- Hayward and Scott exhaust (might get this done this summer)
- Modify the fuel system?
- FMIC or better charge cooler?
- Racing seats for the front - rest of the interior is regulation dependant
- Custom made adjustable suspenson - possibly Spax?
- Diffs?
- Powder coat everything that needs it (I will get Mysh/Jerry to do this)
- Ignition?
- Water Injection?


I have some mechanical ability - I can probably manage to strip most of the car, but building engines, fabrication and bodywork are a bit beyond me. Obviously I want to do this as cheaply as possible, but I also want it done right.

What do you guys think of the list above - have I missed anything?

Who would you reccommend to help me build the car? - Smithy and Datajon come to mind, but I also need to think about minimising the number of times I have to get the car trailered about, plus some of the things on the list are fairly specialist - e.g. body / rollcage stuff. I live in Oxford.

Am I mad? 

How much change will I get from 10K?


Sorry for the essay 

Thanks

Adam

[rhino]

Hi Adam

I am having similar-ish thoughts to yourself at the moment, so will be watching this thread with interest. I haven't got much to add to what you suggest except perhaps thinking about space framing the chassis to reduce weight (though I don't know how this will effect the MOTability of the car...I reckon datajon can help with this issue?)

Oh...IMO I reckon your last question should be more like "How much change will I get from £20K?"

Good luck

[alwayzsidewayz]

Hi Adam.

It all sounds like a good plan, having built and campaigned a car in the old CCC sprint and hillclimb championship many years ago, it is great fun.

I have to say, I think you will need the budget Rhino advises, and then that does beg the question if it makes sense.

I ploughed over 15k into my capri, getting most work done by specialists and doing the easy labour myself. After one hard season, I spent another 4k on refining ideas and chasing more power, only to smash the car at my second event.

I then had no option due to low funds, but to break the car for less than 4k.

Money wise, this all happened in 97, I finished paying off all the debts I had for it only 2 years ago.

If I were you, I would spend some more ££ on you 165 doing a few things, but actually purchase an old race/ rally car for the hill climbing track work etc.

For less than 10k, you could have a cool open wheel hillclimb car, a caterham type kit car, an ex saloon racing car etc. Then you could have a much better base to have fun with, and you will be going much faster for a lot less bucks.

Either that, or search for a 165 rally car in Ireland maybe and work from that.

To build a competitve car from scratch is so expensive, and tbh unless you can do as much in house, ie welding, painiting, nearly all spannering etc, your labour cost will be massive.

Not wishing to sound too negative, but you could have your cake and eat it, if you strip out the 165, and get it to over 300bhp, and also buy a ready made track car, let someone else take the money hit.

Word of warning thou.... buying a track/race/car is potential minefield!

Hope this helps, sorry for essay, but having done what you propose, the costs can be crazy!

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Ok - so if I was to leave the engine and bodyshell as it is and do the following:

Have cheaper aftermarket ems fitted and mapped (something like the link or emerald systems perhaps?) - hopefully something that will allow me to loose the Airflow meter.

Sort out the fuel system - pump and bigger injectors?

Do something with the charge cooling system (FMIC or better CC rad perhaps?)

Hayward and scott exhaust

Sort out air flow as in my original post


What sort of power do you think the car will be running? When I last had it set up on the rollers it was 273bhp with 276ft/lbs torque.
I don't think I will be able to get anywhere near the limits of the turbo - is the engine (standard apart from a top end rebuild with TTE head gasket by Smithy) going to be the limiting factor?

Thanks

Adam

[rhino]

That is an accurate and thoughtful post from alwayzsidewayz...what he says is bang on!

BUT lol you've also got to ask yourself if 'it making sense' is important to you or not. I bought a £900 165 off ebay from the other end of the country and have since put over 6K into it without getting anywhere near my aim for the car...in fact the majority of people would look at how the car has changed since I bought it and feel that I have devalued it I don't care though...puts a grin on my face

If you have the money to do it, and you wanna do it...do it. But as alwayzsidewayz suggests...it will be lots of dosh...probably more than you budget whatever you budget, if you know what I mean...

In response to your last post...all IMO of course...get the best (very occasionally not always the most expensive)and do the job once. I would definately go FMIC over CC anyday...almost regardless of what power you want to achieve. A good fmic will be able to cope with future upgrades that may or may not happen...whereas the cc will become a limiting factor. EMS; I know very very little about...I personally at this stage would go either motec or hydra and look into megasquirt as a third option

Importantly I haven't done any of the works you are asking about, so I am not best qualified to answer your queries really. I have spent a lot of time thinking about such issues though and am still trying to decide which way to go with my 165

[alwayzsidewayz]

Hi Adam,

If I was you, and I am thinking about some similar type development for my 165. I am going to concentrate on the mapping side of my engine now.

I am undecided which way to go, but I feel the key to reliable power is controlling the fueling and ignition. I personally am thinking about going MR2 Rev 3 way which Betsy on the ADL forum has had great results with.

I have upgraded to a Metro turbo rad for my charge cooler, which I see as sufficient at this stage, It only cost £30, and with the a/c gone bolted in straight away. Next I will plumb in a Focus RS charge cooler to run underneath it, in the space in the bumper, which I think will be ample for 300bhp.

Def upgrade the fueling, once you have the management in place, 165 uses side feed inj, so we have a lot of choice on options.

Exhaust, H&S sounds good, but could be a bit dear, but at least you have a bespoke system.

Airflow, I really think that you need to think about the bonnet, I have found really good results from my vent, that and raising the rear of the bonnet, do allow better airflow, one other idea would be to look at opening the front of the bumper apperture.

I am by no means an expert, but with a similar set up to you, I feel that I would not like to push anymore than 300bhp from my near 100k engine, even though recent inspection showed minimal wear.

If I could build up a dream spec 165 engine, I always find myself lusting after a built up 205 engine in my car as your base is so much better.

I love my 165 dearly, having just spent 3k just on parts for her, but I am not blind to her limitations. As a big power car, you really start with one hand behind you back compared to a 205 or even CS/RC. For handling, a 205 is so much better, just because you have so many off the shelf systems to hand.

If you have the money go for it, but really consider the cost vs value issue carefully.

Me.. Once my trin is upto 300bhp, the interior is re trimed and the car has the few bits needed to make sure she stays like she is for years, I intend to build up a zetec powered XR2, 200bhp, 700kgs and all the fun I can handle for less than 3.5k, and that is not unrealistic. That way I have a car I can trash and thrash and I have a near 20 year old toyota that will keep most moderns well honest.

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The thing is - if the car is already at 273bhp, with the stock charge cooler, aircon in place, stock ecu and a crappy exhaust, I am thinking that a new ecu etc is overkill to get to 'just' 300bhp.

My guess is that:

 - a straight intake with a cold air box and some ducting to give a good supply of cold air
 - a decent exhaust
 - lagging the underside of the CC
 - removing the under bonnet lagging
 - a better CC radiatior
 - a bonnet vent over the turbo and a couple of 185 style vents at the back of the bonnet
 - Opening up the blanked out parts of the front grill and bumper

will get me most of the way to 300bhp.

Also, I like aircon

[alwayzsidewayz]

See where you are coming from, I never used my A/c hence ripping it out, My intention is to do the straight intake mod as you, but the only way I can see you getting 300bhp is by upping the boost, which means you are on the limit in terms of the stock ecu fuel maps. At this point I worry about everything becoming marginal, ie injectors etc and the thought that I may risk damage to the engine.

Going by others 300bhp on stock ecu is possible, however it may shorten engine life.

The other thing I would add to your list is Water Inj, as a precaution.

TBH the easy power gains with our 165s have come, I got 252bhp, with a similar set up to you, hybrid turbo, 1 bar boost, exhaust and filter.

Once she goes on the rollers again, with a better CC set up, recon head, I hope that I may get 260bhp on the same boost.

Your mods you list, unless they are combined with a boost increase will only give you a few bhp more, they will however stop the drop off in power due to high temps, being stuck in traffic etc, which will give you much more constant access to those 273 horses, which is a really good thing. The other plus, is exhaust aside, the list is really easy to do and can cost only a few £

I may be being pessimitic with my figures, but having looked at the money people have had to spend to comfortably crack 300bhp  I cannot see there being many more cheap gains.

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I guess what I am wondering is if a decent ems, well set up, plus the appropriate cooling and fueling mods could give more than 300bhp reliably without having to forge the engine?

Also, maybe I should think about going for maximum torque rather than power - I am guessing this would be more fun

[Chris_de_Bear]

I've already been answering on the other forum, but a few arguements on here which I would also back up.

Don't underestimate the money pit that is motorsport !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Unless you have a £100K + budget, don't expect to be winning, or even close, in any car based motorsport, other than road rallying, trialing or autotests.

IMO the cheapest form of 4 wheel motorsport which gives you high speed wheel to wheel racing is karting. I don't mean arrive & drive 40MPH karts, I mean the outdoor 100MPH karts. Off the top of my head, you have little rissington near stow on the wold and the airfield at camberly whose name escapes me. You should be able to get a competitive kart and equipment for sub £3K and run it for less than £2K / season.

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I think my plan stems more from a desire to have my 'perfect' st165 (bar a TTE one of course) and have fun with it rather than a desire to win national championships. Spending 20k on it would be madness though.

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"Def upgrade the fueling, once you have the management in place, 165 uses side feed inj, so we have a lot of choice on options."

I think the st165 has top feed injectors:

http://www.alltrac.net/tuning/fuel.html

[alwayzsidewayz]

Yeah sorry my bad, got side and top mixed up lol!!

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This caught my eye in the link I found:

NipponDenso 550cc 1 (RX7 Turbo, high imp, drop in) #195500-2020 ($79, $50 used)
NipponDenso 550cc 2 (Square Plug) #195500-1370 ($99)
NipponDenso 720cc (Square Plug, requires mod) # ($129)
RC Engineering 550cc Top Feed (Square Plug) # ($89)

Could be a cheap way of upgraging the 165 injectors?

What is the significance of high imp, drop in and square plug?

[alwayzsidewayz]

TBH I don't know, but def want to know you have raised it!