Upgrade path.

[Gary ST165]

RickyB's power primer is a little outtta flavour with todays standalone ecu thinking. i'd haazard a guess that the text concerning the apexi air fuel computer piggyback thing strategy dates from about 2001-2002.

as i stated there is some good info on that site, but there is also dated infos....

consider that the improved faff struggles to get 330 on a stock ecu....with a piggy back.

infact consider that most "tuned / mapped" power fc'd cars fall below this bench mark with a later spec 205 ct turbo...

imho, Its a lot too ask of an elderly 165 set up.

[Coyoteboy]

(And not likely to be reliable at that level either). I heard, though i have no evidence, that the chargecooler is the main trouble factor in the setup?

[bazza2541]

Its still the only concrete path I've found. I have not seen anything else to compare either here or on the OC. These cars are approaching 20 years of age now, there has been time to come up with a definative upgrade path for both the 165 and the 185

[Coyoteboy]

I think the problem lies with the fact that these engines ARE 20 years old. Each one reacts differently, each one has its own weakness. No-one could put together a bulletproof 350hp path because it depends on a) which engine you start from b) what condition its in in the first place c)how well each mod is applied. Most people have avoided the "best path" approach partially because that is the mistake most boy racers fall into - assuming that each bolt-on mod makes +XBHP and that, as we know well, isnt the case.

Plus dont forget that not everyone mods for the same /reasons/ - not everyone wants maximum bhp, some want more more power higher up and dont care about reliability, some want more reliability and higher torque low down. All of which require different attacks.

The basic startup is the same for all:
Make sure the engine is healthy
Get a boost gauge, oil pressure and temp gauges.
and from then on it changes....

The 165 ECU fuel cuts via AFM position and its intake was more restrictive than the later models.
the 185 ECU fuel cuts by pressure and its intake has TVIS whereas 205 doesnt (and whether you keep it is a whole torque/power argument in itself)
The 205 is a better base to tune from and wont need an aftermarket ecu to get the same powers that you need full aftermarket control to get with the other two.

They arent the same beast and no-ones target is the same. Making the target and feel you set yourself through your own methods and careful research leads to more pleasure and reliability than just bolting on X Y or Z because the list says its the next step to some nominal BHP number.

Not trying to sound harsh, im knackered, ive almost finished my thesis and ive not left the house in 4 weeks. Literally. Forgive my grumps!

[mark165]

..

[paul_gt4]

to put a 205 engine in a 165 would be a hell of alot of work than just changing an ecu, there is a few small things like wheel speed sensors that the 165 never had...... and thats just naming one major hassle that has to be irradicated and the only way to do that is to change the ECU or fit them off the faff, which ain't going to be easy..... and if you were going to change the ECU to say hydra for arguments sake you would more than likely want them fitted to use all the features the ECU has, and you need them for launch control..... and the story continues

[bazza2541]

Didn't Wiggy fit a 205 engine in his 165?

[Gary ST165]

the 165/185/205 lump is detuned. the key to unlocking power on any 3sgte is in an aftermarket ECU to control fuellling, ignition and boost strategy & the associated mapping costs. don't kid yourself that you will have a perfect map after just 3 hours on a dyno. the key is to learn to map the car your self by datalogging your daily journeys and tweaking the maps where required...

engine swaps envolving a factory toyota ecu are a lot of hassle for very little gain.each generation/ evolution has a higher factory bhp as a starting point, but all have the same limitations beyond 300 bhp.

doesn't really matter what lump you start with... they all will need a rebuild / refresh and an ECU upgrade and other cooling mods to support a reliable 300+ for long term use.

205 blocks & heads are cheap these days, the reason being they all show wear and realistically need new parts. same applies to 165 and 185 lumps, unless verified low mileage completely stock well maintained etc etc etc


a stock 165 and ECU upgrade will deliver in excess of 300 bhp for a finite period. think big end failure due to oil contamination / lack of cooling / maintenance.



work out your budget, by all the mods in one go and have it rebuilt fitted mapped in one stroke.

[mark165]

..

[Gary ST165]

165/185 tuning: If your happy to boost below factory fuel cut of your stock ECU and keep the factory turbo, then the following need not apply (220-250bhp).



for afm equipped cars: > rewiring the loom to accept any ecu be it a later toyota denso unit or aftermarket incurs the same labour cost or time invested.
st205 / sw20 ecu swap fine if you want factory faff power and have the 205 head, turbo and inlet to match the VE of the system for which it was mapped 0.8 -1.1 bar (260-300bhp).

imoc.co.uk highlights that rev2 > rev3 ECU conversions alone and original engine do NOT deliver. (ECU is mapped for different VE of later revision cylinder head and induction etc)
A rev 3 ECU is 14 year old ++ technology. The toyota units cannot currently be matched to new mods / different VE charactoristics. (That said search MR2 forums for user JMR_AW11 the denso ECU hacker )
The toyota ecu works very very well within its detuned stock parameters and has many many on board safety features to deliver 200,000+ miles on a factory set up. however (currently)it is not flexible enough to deliver the bang for buck of a mappable unit + modified car scenario.

After market ECU is not just about mega power, its about implementing a modern engine management system that is on par with today 2 litres turbos (fodders ).
advatages: >>>improved economy & performance, on board boost control strategys, datalogging of all temps (parameters) with soft cut safety strategys to protect your engine, water injection, anti lag etc etc and the option to wind up the boost as far as you dare or your fuelling and cooling mods permit


ECU should be modification #1

# Its a long term investment that can handle whatever mods your budget permits. The bonus is that when it all goes wrong due to worn stock engine parts etc The engine will be scrapped / broken, but the ECU will always be worth good money when it come to selling up or can be taken to a new project.

# Aftermarket ECU will suffer very little depreciation and will pay for itself in the long term on fuel savings alone.....(lesson i have learned long and hard. 4 years and many ££££ @ 12-16 mpg on stock ECU + AFM & basic performance bolt ons.)

# A well mapped and developed aftermarket ECU set up can deliver in excess of 330 bhp and 330 ft/lbs on stock internals, stock 430 injectors, stock CTxx turbo, made reliable with water, oil and charge cooling upgrades. You will need to wind up the boost quite high to get this...21 psi +++





# Downside: 165 & 185  still need new brakes and suspension to enjoy the new found power....



All i will say is that tuning old toyotas is very expensive. more power = more heat and quicker wear on all moving parts, not forgetting the need to replace like for like a mountain of worn out factory components that have perished due to old age...




 :.....thats the way i see it.

[Gary ST165]

From a fair bit of reading a 280-300bhp (reliable) engine is attainable with some tuning of a later revision 3sgte.

Essentially i'm after a bit more poke from a more modern engine.

i'm sure wiggys 165 > 205 transplant goes very well... in fact way beyond the limits of the braking and suspension.

nowt wrong with that.... and acceptable fuel economy on cruise

for long term reliability, i will re-iterate that the replacement engine should be inspected for wear. new big ends, oil pump, water pump, decoke, valve lap and head reshim as required. change the oil often as you can afford...to protect your investment. Then you are ready to go.

[john77]

Gary this is interesting reading you have put a good perspective on tuning, it seems to me save your money on buying big turbo's, injectors boost controllers ect and just buy a good quality ecu and start from there, its just a shame that they seem to cost far more than I paid for my car! one small question is how good is the165 cooling I'm guessing this is the first thing to address.
I'm not planning on any tuning mods yet, I wan't to sort the handling out first as soon as I figure out where to start!
any advice would be most welcome

[Gary ST165]

one small question is how good is the165 cooling I'm guessing this is the first thing to address.


indeed somethings to think about...

# hot under bonnet temps. TTE suffered from poor airflow through front of car. in > out of engine bay. retaining undertrays and a well placed bonnet vent would help.

# check water radiator and coolant pipework (hoses from hell), assuming it is not cracked due to old age its adequate. Back in the day, Ricky Lee was running 350+ in his MoTeC'd 165 & stock water cooling.

# oil filter on front of block sits too close to the decat (stock cat has lots of heat shielding, but still cooks the oil). oil filter relocation & oil cooler will give longer service to turbo and engine bearings if winding up the boost or drive hard.

# brake fade.



suspension and brakes have been the best ever mods to date on my car. If you are a enthusiastic driver, then carrying speed through the twisties and knowing you can stop is simply the best. It doesn't matter how many horsies are under the bonnet, good handling is the essential for driving pleasure

[Gary ST165]

damn i need an edit button please

....but due to a production run of just over 10,000 cars that ceased 18 years ago, the brake and suspension upgrades are limited and either bespoke or very expensive off the shelf.

[Coyoteboy]

The two biggest ass-dyno measured differences in my car have been the CT20b turbo and the megasquirt. The megasquirt (although not top of the range, expensive, or the best out there it suits my targets) releases the engine fairly noticably. At moderate boost the fuelling of the stock ECU is a tad conservative, but with higher boost levels (14psi) it just throws fuel through at 8:1 - even with my MS poorly tuned and a conservative timing map I was grinning from ear to ear from the difference at only 10psi. If you can afford it I would agree wholeheartedly with the ECU option, however most people dont ahve the cash to throw at it all at once.